you missed off led zeppelin to that list... ah immigration song is alright... hmmm ignore the lyrics though.
you are basically asking which comes first the chicken or the egg? To what extent do my judgements and my distaste for some of the music you post influence each other? Could take some thinking?
How about you, to what extent does a lo-fi production and sloppy instrument work influence your love of something? To what extent does this appeal to you on a subconscious level as mentally rebelling against the eagles production, and the folks that loved them, swating away on the school bus?
Honeslty, thats what I targetted with that song I recorded. Went for the cheap shot, but it worked, how much did running the vocs through a reverebed mic guitar setting remind you of mark E smiths vocals, on another level? How much did the Telecaster run through an orange tube head remind you of old school blues and country?
Did I actually write a good song, or did I just cut and paste my perception of your mental touchstones musically?
Shoddy production and sloppy playing don't make a song for me...neither does slick production and virtuosity.
Ocean Rain...Pet Sounds. They may have been enhanced by the tedious process in which they were made, but it's the songs that make those records great.
Songs is what I love...just like the last one you sent over. I love that thing three seconds in and it had nothing to do with shoddy playin'. You didn't blast by that brilliant little hook and gave it some space to breath. You could put that thing on 72 tracks, spread George Martin's ashes over it, add a harp, bounce it off a satellite and it would still be great.
The Eagles fail not because of their slick packaging, but because the songs are soulless and can't be considered to deliver the goods as promised. Country Rock? Really? You ever heard of Waylon Jennings? David Allen Coe?
You tell me about Hound Dog Taylor. Is he to be dismissed cause he played a cheap Japanese guitar and that sounded like ****? 'Cause if that's the case we've got a problem...the people that invented the stuff are being told they aren't doing it right.
Sure I don't think its a bad riff, but I think the addition of elements that made concessions to your taste, the brash telecaster, the raw sound, and the opening shrill riff, all derived from things you like, made it appeal to you? Which if you remember is exactly what I tried to do, use not just a sequence of sounds but a sequence of sounds designed to prompt a specific response from you personally.
Honest to god I am making no judgements about any music before I hear it, after I hear it, well... there is not a man alive that can prevent the natural process of choices and judgements, Indeed that was exactly my point in your post a while back and a few PM's we exchanged; Sound sequences will provoke memories and reactions, and thats what the challenge was. I wanted to like the minuitemen, quite desperately so. At some point I'll elaborate on what a nightmare it is to be a music and NOT like people like Black Flag, the Fall, Minuitemen, Scout Niblet, etc etc. You'll discover very quickly whilst I used the term too cool for school, because the likes of me get turned into a social leper for not liking them and try desperately to when what really appeals is stuff considered obvious and cliche. I have had that CD you sent me in the car since you mailed it and have it on a lot (much to poor Emmas dismay) trying to find some stuff I like. I don't dislike it (well one or two) but I just don't care for it.
"the people that invented the stuff are being told they aren't doing it right"
I see this totally as your judgement. I'm not saying its right or wrong, anywhere. But this statment implys there is a right and a wrong way (Kant would be very cross at you), and doing it first means its better. What does that say about the judgements you make? You even said for example Muse's theatricals remind you of Elvis etc, so do they get put in the mental pile of 'derivatives of XX', so you may as well go to the source? To me what they do and don't do different makes the music to me. I got no beef with Elvis, he's got some cool stuff, but none of it sets my soul on fire like hearing 'Hysteria' Live.
I must have a bad mic. I said Muse remind me more of Scot Walker than Elvis and Bo Diddley (of course fat-Elvis is cool too)...the point being it sounds like Pop music with elements of rocknroll.
If we're talking about rocknroll...then it's just a historical fact...people like Hound Dog Taylor, Elvis, Ike Turner, Bo Diddley, did invent it. If one has a problem with Bo Diddley then one has a problem with Rocknroll....because they certainly did not have a problem with the way they were playing it.
Hence the question, why does Adam hate Rock n Roll :) ? It's a joke, but....
The point of the whole point of the post was to ask if it's possible to appreciate things you don't care for...Kant would be very happy with me. Like I said your taste, one's taste, is not my business. I wouldn't try to change it and I certainly wouldn't hold it against you.
If I thought you were a hopeless dork or something I'd just ignore the issue of music all together...like I do with the sister. :0
Stop torturing Emma...if hasn't happened by now it never will. I don't want her cursin' me.
Yeah, sorry my bad about the Elvis bit, I didn't relisten, I just did. The 'net at work is slow man so I got lazy this am and opted for memory... bad idea
O.K: Is it possible to appreciate things you don't care for: Yes. I can appreciate in a sense how Led Zeppelin defined a genre of rock, do I find anything to like in there, not really. Same goes for the Fall, Joy division, whoever else. I notice that other artists I like cite them as references, and that it has an influence on the music I like, but I myself find nothing I care for in the source itself. I suppose this fits the one of the definitions of appreciate, but I would describe what I feel more as awareness and acceptance. I appreciate the Rain in this way, but its a different appreciation to that which I have for the sun, or the snow? I wouldn't choose to stand in the rain, or seek it out, I don't enjoy it per se, but I accept it had an important part to play in the things I do like. Cut: the drumming, the guitar lines, I see a commonality between them and the Red Hot Chilli Peppers... I prefer the Chilli's, that appears to be the wrong choice.
I accept what you say about the above inventing rock and roll, but I don't accept I have an issue with rock and roll, unless you define the only definition of rock and roll is the first person to play it. If that is the 'only' definition of rock and roll, then yeah, I hate it, but I don't know where we go from there, do I gotta seek some sort of approval on what defines what, is this dissolution, dispersal, and amalgamation bad, do we have to stop calling it rock and roll? Its moving into definitions of taste but I'm gonna roll with it.
You can love a person but not like their ancestry or origins right? They are still of the same lineage, does the difference/disolution discount the elements of its origin? Its origin has had an influence, but surely you can (by choice) view the reult as greater than the source?
At no point to I say any of it isn't rock and role and hasn't had any impact. I said it wasn't to my taste, I listened, I can hear the elements you discuss, but I don't find anything to enjoy, or take away.
Its seems to me though, that in the same way you seized on my sarky snip about 'too cool for school' I added with my opinion, this creeps in through your tone and language in the video and posts. 'Allowances' for pretentiouness and theatrics... really? thats magnanamous of you dude. Is this not applying criteria for judging aethetics sneaking in there(hence my Kant point). Why is it you would take away 'aesthetic points' for this. O.K you concede you 'appreciate' it, but you immediately qualify it with your own judgements and taste. I don't think we can extract any of these things, the guy from sham 69, me, and you are all doing it all the time, and man it would be a boring world if we did turgidly seperate the influence something had from our opinion, boring as not discussing it at all.
Also, lets not forget, 'Adam hates rock and roll' was my punch line maaan, you ain't having that, and I got plans for a song with the name too :)
"Making allowances" was a sarcastic nod to the accusation that I fall for anything with crappy production. How many times can admit to loving Ocean Rain and still be accused of having a problem with slick production.
You don't have to love Bo Diddly or Hound Dog Taylor...just don't slag it off as not being up to snuff. That's the problem...not the taste, the dismissal as repetitive or not technically proficient enough. Nobody has to like it, but one can't judge it by standards that are outside the form.
It's a matter of authorship and propriety.
When appreciate...I don't mean it lightly. I don't want to listen to Led Zepplin anymore, but when I say I can appreciate I mean I can hear the hooks...that for me to say this sucks would be Wrong. I don't think there's any denying the hooks in those songs. My problem is after about three listens it sounds too study for me...like a dissertation on what a rocknroll song should sound like...without adding anything to it...it's souless to me after a while. So I don't really listen to it...like nails on a chalk board, but it would be wrong to say it's bad.
You haven't made the "wrong" choice with the Chili Peppers...I don't hate the Red Hot Chili Peppers, I like 'em alright...there is no wrong choice...but, the Minutemen are more than some sloppy lo-fi band...or some band that people pretend to like cause it's cool.
So not derivative crap then? My jibes are judgement hate crime, yours are sarcastic nods, I think this is headed the usual way. :-)
Addressing the offense here your honour:
I said you and my mate J should get together and discuss scratchy lo-fi music or somesuch, its an obvious jibe; you and he like a lot of the same music, Its often critically aclaimed amongst music fans, but I struggle to get into or understand it. Same goes for the too cool for school thing. I'm sure they read as matey wind ups if not its my bad, sorry.
I also said the Minuitemen sound hollow. This had nothing to do with audio or instrument quality, but the song itself, perhaps that wasn't clear. I freaking love my Sunn Mustang stratocaster copy, its a £30 rip off and sounds raw as you like. You heard let robeson sing yeah, I like that, don't come as crappy as that. You remember an incredibly pretentiously titled song I sent you some time back with an arpeggio opening- one take, cheap guitar, bad mic, horrible tinny solid state marshal amp? I have tried again and again to re-record it, but its never as good. Hollow, meant their was no heart to the song; no body. It sounded like 3 people playing instrumens proficiently at the same time. Scatty, nothing tied it together. Its like the audio equivalent of an etch a sketch doodle. Cut sounded like it was gonna explode until 11 seconds in, then it just got irritating, like a baby crying, the guitar mostly, I just wanted it off. This is my opinion, no propriety or standards attached.
Same goes for some of the old R+R and blues stuff, some is great, but I can't enjoy an out of tune guitar or a duff set of notes (not Hound Dog Taylor in this case btw). I can listen to hound dog, its O.K, I can appreciate it and enjoy it for a listen or two and I'm done, it gets boring and obvious. But in other cases I can't pretend to respect something or even appreciate it, If I don't, it'd be silly.
Leaves us with the ol'; its just not my bag dude, sorry. ( maybe you shoulda sent king of the hill, as it is its a bit of a mess, but I could probably record a version of that I'd enjoy)
Look at the expression on your face before the video ever starts playing. Geez!!
ReplyDeleteP.S. I recommend some Cortizone cream for your leg next time before you start filming.
I have to ask my self why I'm seeking out conversation on the nets when profundity like that is only a phone call away.
ReplyDeleteyou missed off led zeppelin to that list... ah immigration song is alright... hmmm ignore the lyrics though.
ReplyDeleteyou are basically asking which comes first the chicken or the egg? To what extent do my judgements and my distaste for some of the music you post influence each other? Could take some thinking?
How about you, to what extent does a lo-fi production and sloppy instrument work influence your love of something? To what extent does this appeal to you on a subconscious level as mentally rebelling against the eagles production, and the folks that loved them, swating away on the school bus?
Honeslty, thats what I targetted with that song I recorded. Went for the cheap shot, but it worked, how much did running the vocs through a reverebed mic guitar setting remind you of mark E smiths vocals, on another level? How much did the Telecaster run through an orange tube head remind you of old school blues and country?
Did I actually write a good song, or did I just cut and paste my perception of your mental touchstones musically?
;-)
These are by the way, genuine sincere questions, nothing more. Just in case the ol' t'interwebs translation is getting in the way.
ReplyDeleteAnd by cheap shot, I meant they were things I could easily identify commonly between the stuff you liked, i.e picking on cliches to some extent.
Shoddy production and sloppy playing don't make a song for me...neither does slick production and virtuosity.
ReplyDeleteOcean Rain...Pet Sounds. They may have been enhanced by the tedious process in which they were made, but it's the songs that make those records great.
Songs is what I love...just like the last one you sent over. I love that thing three seconds in and it had nothing to do with shoddy playin'. You didn't blast by that brilliant little hook and gave it some space to breath. You could put that thing on 72 tracks, spread George Martin's ashes over it, add a harp, bounce it off a satellite and it would still be great.
The Eagles fail not because of their slick packaging, but because the songs are soulless and can't be considered to deliver the goods as promised. Country Rock? Really? You ever heard of Waylon Jennings? David Allen Coe?
Stoopid Keyboard.
ReplyDeleteTake it easy? Take it away from me.
You tell me about Hound Dog Taylor. Is he to be dismissed cause he played a cheap Japanese guitar and that sounded like ****? 'Cause if that's the case we've got a problem...the people that invented the stuff are being told they aren't doing it right.
Sure I don't think its a bad riff, but I think the addition of elements that made concessions to your taste, the brash telecaster, the raw sound, and the opening shrill riff, all derived from things you like, made it appeal to you? Which if you remember is exactly what I tried to do, use not just a sequence of sounds but a sequence of sounds designed to prompt a specific response from you personally.
ReplyDeleteHonest to god I am making no judgements about any music before I hear it, after I hear it, well... there is not a man alive that can prevent the natural process of choices and judgements, Indeed that was exactly my point in your post a while back and a few PM's we exchanged; Sound sequences will provoke memories and reactions, and thats what the challenge was. I wanted to like the minuitemen, quite desperately so. At some point I'll elaborate on what a nightmare it is to be a music and NOT like people like Black Flag, the Fall, Minuitemen, Scout Niblet, etc etc. You'll discover very quickly whilst I used the term too cool for school, because the likes of me get turned into a social leper for not liking them and try desperately to when what really appeals is stuff considered obvious and cliche. I have had that CD you sent me in the car since you mailed it and have it on a lot (much to poor Emmas dismay) trying to find some stuff I like. I don't dislike it (well one or two) but I just don't care for it.
"the people that invented the stuff are being told they aren't doing it right"
I see this totally as your judgement. I'm not saying its right or wrong, anywhere. But this statment implys there is a right and a wrong way (Kant would be very cross at you), and doing it first means its better. What does that say about the judgements you make? You even said for example Muse's theatricals remind you of Elvis etc, so do they get put in the mental pile of 'derivatives of XX', so you may as well go to the source? To me what they do and don't do different makes the music to me. I got no beef with Elvis, he's got some cool stuff, but none of it sets my soul on fire like hearing 'Hysteria' Live.
I must have a bad mic. I said Muse remind me more of Scot Walker than Elvis and Bo Diddley (of course fat-Elvis is cool too)...the point being it sounds like Pop music with elements of rocknroll.
ReplyDeleteIf we're talking about rocknroll...then it's just a historical fact...people like Hound Dog Taylor, Elvis, Ike Turner, Bo Diddley, did invent it. If one has a problem with Bo Diddley then one has a problem with Rocknroll....because they certainly did not have a problem with the way they were playing it.
Hence the question, why does Adam hate Rock n Roll :) ? It's a joke, but....
The point of the whole point of the post was to ask if it's possible to appreciate things you don't care for...Kant would be very happy with me. Like I said your taste, one's taste, is not my business. I wouldn't try to change it and I certainly wouldn't hold it against you.
If I thought you were a hopeless dork or something I'd just ignore the issue of music all together...like I do with the sister. :0
Stop torturing Emma...if hasn't happened by now it never will. I don't want her cursin' me.
Yeah, sorry my bad about the Elvis bit, I didn't relisten, I just did. The 'net at work is slow man so I got lazy this am and opted for memory... bad idea
ReplyDeleteO.K: Is it possible to appreciate things you don't care for: Yes. I can appreciate in a sense how Led Zeppelin defined a genre of rock, do I find anything to like in there, not really. Same goes for the Fall, Joy division, whoever else. I notice that other artists I like cite them as references, and that it has an influence on the music I like, but I myself find nothing I care for in the source itself. I suppose this fits the one of the definitions of appreciate, but I would describe what I feel more as awareness and acceptance. I appreciate the Rain in this way, but its a different appreciation to that which I have for the sun, or the snow? I wouldn't choose to stand in the rain, or seek it out, I don't enjoy it per se, but I accept it had an important part to play in the things I do like. Cut: the drumming, the guitar lines, I see a commonality between them and the Red Hot Chilli Peppers... I prefer the Chilli's, that appears to be the wrong choice.
I accept what you say about the above inventing rock and roll, but I don't accept I have an issue with rock and roll, unless you define the only definition of rock and roll is the first person to play it. If that is the 'only' definition of rock and roll, then yeah, I hate it, but I don't know where we go from there, do I gotta seek some sort of approval on what defines what, is this dissolution, dispersal, and amalgamation bad, do we have to stop calling it rock and roll? Its moving into definitions of taste but I'm gonna roll with it.
You can love a person but not like their ancestry or origins right? They are still of the same lineage, does the difference/disolution discount the elements of its origin? Its origin has had an influence, but surely you can (by choice) view the reult as greater than the source?
At no point to I say any of it isn't rock and role and hasn't had any impact. I said it wasn't to my taste, I listened, I can hear the elements you discuss, but I don't find anything to enjoy, or take away.
Its seems to me though, that in the same way you seized on my sarky snip about 'too cool for school' I added with my opinion, this creeps in through your tone and language in the video and posts. 'Allowances' for pretentiouness and theatrics... really? thats magnanamous of you dude. Is this not applying criteria for judging aethetics sneaking in there(hence my Kant point). Why is it you would take away 'aesthetic points' for this. O.K you concede you 'appreciate' it, but you immediately qualify it with your own judgements and taste. I don't think we can extract any of these things, the guy from sham 69, me, and you are all doing it all the time, and man it would be a boring world if we did turgidly seperate the influence something had from our opinion, boring as not discussing it at all.
Also, lets not forget, 'Adam hates rock and roll' was my punch line maaan, you ain't having that, and I got plans for a song with the name too :)
No no no...see Cast of Characters.
ReplyDelete"Making allowances" was a sarcastic nod to the accusation that I fall for anything with crappy production. How many times can admit to loving Ocean Rain and still be accused of having a problem with slick production.
You don't have to love Bo Diddly or Hound Dog Taylor...just don't slag it off as not being up to snuff. That's the problem...not the taste, the dismissal as repetitive or not technically proficient enough. Nobody has to like it, but one can't judge it by standards that are outside the form.
It's a matter of authorship and propriety.
When appreciate...I don't mean it lightly. I don't want to listen to Led Zepplin anymore, but when I say I can appreciate I mean I can hear the hooks...that for me to say this sucks would be Wrong. I don't think there's any denying the hooks in those songs. My problem is after about three listens it sounds too study for me...like a dissertation on what a rocknroll song should sound like...without adding anything to it...it's souless to me after a while. So I don't really listen to it...like nails on a chalk board, but it would be wrong to say it's bad.
You haven't made the "wrong" choice with the Chili Peppers...I don't hate the Red Hot Chili Peppers, I like 'em alright...there is no wrong choice...but, the Minutemen are more than some sloppy lo-fi band...or some band that people pretend to like cause it's cool.
So not derivative crap then? My jibes are judgement hate crime, yours are sarcastic nods, I think this is headed the usual way. :-)
ReplyDeleteAddressing the offense here your honour:
I said you and my mate J should get together and discuss scratchy lo-fi music or somesuch, its an obvious jibe; you and he like a lot of the same music, Its often critically aclaimed amongst music fans, but I struggle to get into or understand it. Same goes for the too cool for school thing. I'm sure they read as matey wind ups if not its my bad, sorry.
I also said the Minuitemen sound hollow. This had nothing to do with audio or instrument quality, but the song itself, perhaps that wasn't clear. I freaking love my Sunn Mustang stratocaster copy, its a £30 rip off and sounds raw as you like. You heard let robeson sing yeah, I like that, don't come as crappy as that. You remember an incredibly pretentiously titled song I sent you some time back with an arpeggio opening- one take, cheap guitar, bad mic, horrible tinny solid state marshal amp? I have tried again and again to re-record it, but its never as good. Hollow, meant their was no heart to the song; no body. It sounded like 3 people playing instrumens proficiently at the same time. Scatty, nothing tied it together. Its like the audio equivalent of an etch a sketch doodle. Cut sounded like it was gonna explode until 11 seconds in, then it just got irritating, like a baby crying, the guitar mostly, I just wanted it off. This is my opinion, no propriety or standards attached.
Same goes for some of the old R+R and blues stuff, some is great, but I can't enjoy an out of tune guitar or a duff set of notes (not Hound Dog Taylor in this case btw). I can listen to hound dog, its O.K, I can appreciate it and enjoy it for a listen or two and I'm done, it gets boring and obvious. But in other cases I can't pretend to respect something or even appreciate it, If I don't, it'd be silly.
Leaves us with the ol'; its just not my bag dude, sorry. ( maybe you shoulda sent king of the hill, as it is its a bit of a mess, but I could probably record a version of that I'd enjoy)